Friday, June 16, 2006
The souls of animals and clones
First, an announcement; near the top of my sidebar you'll see a new addition to the clump of little banners to click on to subscribe to my feed and blogroll me... the vivid yellow "Add to Any" button. If you click on it, you'll go to a page that gives you, as of when I write this, *45* choices as to services you can view my RSS feed with; now, you can have me any way you want me, so to speak. I'm not ready to pull my other subscription buttons yet, as I'm not willing to totally trust one site with this whole thing until I see a record of good performance from them, but at least now I don't have to worry that I'm not offering enough options... I'm glad I didn't give in to earlier impulses to go to the trouble of adding a bunch of services individually!!
I discussed the soul issues with a devoutly Christian friend today; one who reads the Bible and thinks for herself, so don't roll your eyes. We have highly enjoyable discussions about spiritual matters because she shares my desire to understand WHY things work the way they do; she believes that karma is something God created to help Him run things, so we can even talk about the metaphysical stuff... it doesn't matter to either of us that she's sure there's a higher being behind it all and I neither believe nor disbelieve in that (as there's no proof one way or the other).
I found 2 quotes from the Bible that had been put forth as possible evidence that animals have souls:
Genesis 1:20-21
"And God said, 'Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.' And God created great whales, and every living creature (nephesh, soul) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."
That wouldn't seem to have anything to do with the point if it weren't for the inclusion of the 2 words in the parentheses (I don't know if it appeared in someone's annotated Bible like that or if they just stuck it in to illustrate their point); "nephesh" is the word which was used in a Hebrew version of the Bible at the point it's included in parens above, and although it's been translated into English as "living creature" here, its primary meaning is "soul." That seemed a little iffy to me as proof of anything (not that I'm qualified to pass expert judgment on the accuracy of anyone's Biblical analysis), but this one is better:
Genesis 9:5
"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man."
The idea here is that only those with souls could be asked to give an accounting, and thus animals MUST have souls; it's hard to imagine what they could be accounting FOR, as without the brains to understand right and wrong and choose between them they can't technically sin, but even little kids are supposed to give an accounting if they die, and they can't technically sin either, so...
My friend already believed, as I do, that at least the higher animals have souls; my belief comes from my idea that the soul is formed by the energy of thoughts and feelings, which higher animals have to at least an extent which should give them some version of a soul (see my post of 4-14-04), and hers comes from her idea that God gives a soul to any creature that can love (and thus that some PEOPLE do NOT have souls, but that's a whole 'nother post)... where the line is drawn as to what kinds of animals have souls and what kinds don't has become more uncertain for her now, as the Biblical quote doesn't specify higher animals only, so she's going to research it and let me know what she comes up with.
The eventual existence of clones wasn't being contemplated in ancient times, so of course there's no mention of them in the Bible; that hasn't stopped some religious types from being certain that they know how God will judge them. The hard-core Christian view, among those who've really thought it through, appears to be that God gives each of us a soul the instant we start life, life begins at conception, and conception means sperm + egg; since cloning doesn't involve a sperm and an egg there's no conception, and thus no human life ever begins, making a clone soulless and not human. Those who haven't hashed out all the specifics just say that only people created by God would have souls, which means essentially the same thing; that His refusal to grant a soul to a person not made by Him would make God the omnipotent equivalent of a petulant child doesn't seem to have occurred to them. The "animals have souls" person's view, in contrast, was that the clone would have to be some sort of creature lower than an animal to not have a soul, and since the clone was still in God's image this wasn't possible. My friend's analysis was, "God's not stupid; He'd know that the clone had human DNA and so was human, and even if he disapproved of cloning he wouldn't punish the clone, which would be as innocent as any other baby at birth, by withholding a soul from it." MY analysis is that if the clone has thoughts and feelings, as we'd expect it to unless something went terribly wrong, it'd have a soul... UNLESS, of course, there's something in the egg and/or sperm that's important to the about-to-be-human's ability to form a soul, in which case cloning would produce sociopathic monsters... but that's not very likely... is it?
Would YOU see a clone as a fully human being, with a soul if you believe in such things? If you said "yes," ask yourself: Would you hire a clone to work in an important position in your company? How about as a babysitter for your child? Would you be willing to be close friends with a clone? Would you adopt a cloned child? Would you date a clone? Allow your kids to befriend one? Want your daughter to marry one? Would you love half-clone grandchildren as much as "regular" ones? Could you ever feel really, REALLY sure that the unnatural manipulation of DNA hadn't produced something monstrous as a by-product?
Scifi and horror stories are full of things that look like humans but aren't, things that are usually dangerous; we've all absorbed those concepts from childhood, and would have a hard time not being influenced by them. Unless and until science could prove the existence of souls, and that clones have them, cloned people would be sure to not be fully accepted... and so we shouldn't try to make any.
I sure hope this all gets sorted out in my lifetime...
I discussed the soul issues with a devoutly Christian friend today; one who reads the Bible and thinks for herself, so don't roll your eyes. We have highly enjoyable discussions about spiritual matters because she shares my desire to understand WHY things work the way they do; she believes that karma is something God created to help Him run things, so we can even talk about the metaphysical stuff... it doesn't matter to either of us that she's sure there's a higher being behind it all and I neither believe nor disbelieve in that (as there's no proof one way or the other).
I found 2 quotes from the Bible that had been put forth as possible evidence that animals have souls:
Genesis 1:20-21
"And God said, 'Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.' And God created great whales, and every living creature (nephesh, soul) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good."
That wouldn't seem to have anything to do with the point if it weren't for the inclusion of the 2 words in the parentheses (I don't know if it appeared in someone's annotated Bible like that or if they just stuck it in to illustrate their point); "nephesh" is the word which was used in a Hebrew version of the Bible at the point it's included in parens above, and although it's been translated into English as "living creature" here, its primary meaning is "soul." That seemed a little iffy to me as proof of anything (not that I'm qualified to pass expert judgment on the accuracy of anyone's Biblical analysis), but this one is better:
Genesis 9:5
"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man."
The idea here is that only those with souls could be asked to give an accounting, and thus animals MUST have souls; it's hard to imagine what they could be accounting FOR, as without the brains to understand right and wrong and choose between them they can't technically sin, but even little kids are supposed to give an accounting if they die, and they can't technically sin either, so...
My friend already believed, as I do, that at least the higher animals have souls; my belief comes from my idea that the soul is formed by the energy of thoughts and feelings, which higher animals have to at least an extent which should give them some version of a soul (see my post of 4-14-04), and hers comes from her idea that God gives a soul to any creature that can love (and thus that some PEOPLE do NOT have souls, but that's a whole 'nother post)... where the line is drawn as to what kinds of animals have souls and what kinds don't has become more uncertain for her now, as the Biblical quote doesn't specify higher animals only, so she's going to research it and let me know what she comes up with.
The eventual existence of clones wasn't being contemplated in ancient times, so of course there's no mention of them in the Bible; that hasn't stopped some religious types from being certain that they know how God will judge them. The hard-core Christian view, among those who've really thought it through, appears to be that God gives each of us a soul the instant we start life, life begins at conception, and conception means sperm + egg; since cloning doesn't involve a sperm and an egg there's no conception, and thus no human life ever begins, making a clone soulless and not human. Those who haven't hashed out all the specifics just say that only people created by God would have souls, which means essentially the same thing; that His refusal to grant a soul to a person not made by Him would make God the omnipotent equivalent of a petulant child doesn't seem to have occurred to them. The "animals have souls" person's view, in contrast, was that the clone would have to be some sort of creature lower than an animal to not have a soul, and since the clone was still in God's image this wasn't possible. My friend's analysis was, "God's not stupid; He'd know that the clone had human DNA and so was human, and even if he disapproved of cloning he wouldn't punish the clone, which would be as innocent as any other baby at birth, by withholding a soul from it." MY analysis is that if the clone has thoughts and feelings, as we'd expect it to unless something went terribly wrong, it'd have a soul... UNLESS, of course, there's something in the egg and/or sperm that's important to the about-to-be-human's ability to form a soul, in which case cloning would produce sociopathic monsters... but that's not very likely... is it?
Would YOU see a clone as a fully human being, with a soul if you believe in such things? If you said "yes," ask yourself: Would you hire a clone to work in an important position in your company? How about as a babysitter for your child? Would you be willing to be close friends with a clone? Would you adopt a cloned child? Would you date a clone? Allow your kids to befriend one? Want your daughter to marry one? Would you love half-clone grandchildren as much as "regular" ones? Could you ever feel really, REALLY sure that the unnatural manipulation of DNA hadn't produced something monstrous as a by-product?
Scifi and horror stories are full of things that look like humans but aren't, things that are usually dangerous; we've all absorbed those concepts from childhood, and would have a hard time not being influenced by them. Unless and until science could prove the existence of souls, and that clones have them, cloned people would be sure to not be fully accepted... and so we shouldn't try to make any.
I sure hope this all gets sorted out in my lifetime...
Monday, June 12, 2006
Clothes encounters
Regulars might remember my posting a few months ago (on 2-16-06, to be exact) that I'd realized that much of my wardrobe consisted of junior-sized shirts that don't fit over my boobs anymore, and that my ability (and desire) to dress like a geek all the time meant that I'd managed to get over 2 decades into adulthood having almost no clothes other than t-shirts, jeans and some sweaters from my college days... and thus my odyssey of belatedly building a grown-up wardrobe began.
For most of the past 4 months, I've been doing endless eBay searches for the kinds of shirts that I'd need for every possible occasion, that anyone my age could rightly be expected to have; at this point, I can honestly say that I can cover the upper half of my body for anything short of a formal event (I'm not willing to get a ball gown to have in reserve). As the new shirts were coming in, I was gradually yanking old ones and tossing them in a pile; when I ran out of old stuff to get rid of, I took a giant trash bag and started putting the rejects into it for eventual delivery to Goodwill.
I'd gotten rid of 78 shirts. That's not a typo; *78* shirts!! That's not all the shirts I had, it's not even HALF; when did I get so MANY? I've hardly bought an item of clothing in a decade, that's why so much didn't fit anymore; how many shirts would I have had if I'd been like most women and been buying new clothes every season all those years?
You know what's even scarier? Because my husband did a disappearing act on the pile of hangers liberated by my original frenzy of wardrobe-pruning (see my post of 5-27-06), I can't be sure how their # compares to the # of new hangers that had to be purchased, but... I think I pretty much replaced all of the old shirts with new ones. I'd just kinda gotten into the habit of doing the searches and bidding on shirts, and... just kinda never STOPPED. I got everything really cheaply (the most I paid was $15 apiece for a couple of things, and the bulk of them were under $10 with many under $5), so it averages out to far less than most women spend if you take into account how long I'd gone without new clothes, but it's still a fair chunk of change; luckily, my husband is of the rare "Buy what you want" breed, rather than the far more common "Why did you waste more $ on clothes when you've already got plenty?" breed (although considering how much he spends on tech gadgetry, he's got nothing to complain about at any rate).
The really touching thing, though, is what he's said a couple of times since I officially announced the end of my clothing searches; although he didn't seem too excited to see the steady stream of shirts coming in, now that the stream is drying up he tells me that he'll really miss seeing me modeling them, that it'd been the highlight of his existence... those were his exact words, can you imagine? Pretty strong sentiments from a geek who's traditionally barely noticed clothes, as evidenced by the holes and stains that typically adorn HIS.
I've made some unexpected discoveries about the sorts of clothes he likes to see me in during this lengthy process, too. The 1st was that, despite his overall preference for plain, dark garments, he apparently thinks I look particularly "cute" in the most feminine colors and patterns imaginable; I got some extras in that category in consequence, and it'll be amusing to shock my geek friends by wearing them sometime soon. The 2nd was that he's been secretly loving some pajama/lounge pants I'd gotten a while back to wear when it's too hot for sweatpants (I don't wear shorts-my family was very conservative about that sort of thing, and it's stuck with me), and that his favorite pair was one with an unusual mixture of gothic and pastel images that he called "a fetching combination of girlishness and menace"; when I half-jokingly asked "You mean like ME?", he said "Yeah, you can be fairly menacing" with a big, dopey grin on his face... isn't that an odd thing for a man to like? Although I hadn't been looking for more pj bottoms as part of my new wardrobe, a neat pair with a cartoonish animal pattern on them had popped up in one of my searches, and I'd won them because they went cheaply; it was their arrival that got him waxing poetic about the entire genre. I'm well aware that pajamas of this sort are meant for much younger women, but the way my husband beams at me whenever I put on the newest pair has made me decide that the rules as to what's proper for my age don't apply to things worn only within the walls of our home; anything he's that enthusiastic to see me wearing after all our years together that doesn't involve underwires and thongs and such has gotta be a good thing.
Perhaps the most amazing clothes-related topic is that I've actually gotten PANTS on eBay; that might not sound noteworthy to the men, but women's bodies can curve to all sorts of degrees, there's no shred of size standardization within a brand much less between brands, and finding pants that fit properly is often a nightmare. The 1st pair of pants came as a gift along with the matching shirt I'd won, and, although they're a size 6, they're cut full and fit perfectly; this set in effect gives me a suit now, since I've gotten some shells to wear with it, which really helped alot in covering all my clothing bases. A 2nd pair of pants came up in a search for shirts, and they were so cool that I took a chance... and not only do they fit, they make my butt look better than any pair of pants I've ever had, which is saying a great deal since my butt isn't getting any smaller or younger. The 3rd pair of pants should be arriving any day now; they're really dressy, and since they have stretch there's a good chance they'll fit even if they're smaller than the measurements the seller gave led me to believe... if they work out, they, along with the pants I already mentioned and a couple of pairs of nice slacks I got at WalMart, will complete the wardrobe for the bottom half of my body. (Edit: got 'em-they fit!!)
What might be my greatest clothing coup EVER came right at the end of my months of searching; I found an auction for a wild shirt in my husband's size, and because he really liked it I put it on my watch list... and then the very next day I saw another auction for the exact same shirt from a different seller in MY size... I can still hardly believe it, this is NOT the sort of shirt you expect to see more than 1 of. I won both auctions, 15 hours apart, and, although one seller was in our state and the other was halfway across the country, both shirts came on the same day; the whole thing was almost eerie, but in a good way. Anyways, we now have MATCHING shirts; I don't know if we look cool or silly, but we're certainly distinctive, and WE like how we look.
There's another anecdote that's technically clothing-related; I used my husband's bathroom tonight, and finished off the roll of toilet paper, so like any mature human being I looked for a roll in the cabinet to replace it with... and there was nothing. I was about to go get a fresh package for him, but then I spotted the dirty socks on the floor... and carefully draped one around the empty roll. Imagine his surprise when he next went in there to do his business and all he had available to wipe himself with was a SOCK, lol.
And one final anecdote that's not clothing-related but IS, er, wiping-related; you might recall my post of 4-1-06 where I described how my husband decided that a CLOROX wipe was the same thing as a hand wipe was the same thing as a personal cleansing wipe, and used one on his backside, much to the amusement of me and our friends. Yesterday, the husband of one of my friends asked me for an email addy where he could send my husband jokes or some such nonsense; since my husband has a website, you can send him email with ANY addy that includes his domain name... so I gave my friend's husband an addy that had "Clorox_Kid" in it, which he thanked me for and used not knowing it was a joke. My husband was going to explain to the other man why this was NOT an approved addy, but wimped out and just told him it was a joke and to ask his wife for clarification.
hehehehehe
For most of the past 4 months, I've been doing endless eBay searches for the kinds of shirts that I'd need for every possible occasion, that anyone my age could rightly be expected to have; at this point, I can honestly say that I can cover the upper half of my body for anything short of a formal event (I'm not willing to get a ball gown to have in reserve). As the new shirts were coming in, I was gradually yanking old ones and tossing them in a pile; when I ran out of old stuff to get rid of, I took a giant trash bag and started putting the rejects into it for eventual delivery to Goodwill.
I'd gotten rid of 78 shirts. That's not a typo; *78* shirts!! That's not all the shirts I had, it's not even HALF; when did I get so MANY? I've hardly bought an item of clothing in a decade, that's why so much didn't fit anymore; how many shirts would I have had if I'd been like most women and been buying new clothes every season all those years?
You know what's even scarier? Because my husband did a disappearing act on the pile of hangers liberated by my original frenzy of wardrobe-pruning (see my post of 5-27-06), I can't be sure how their # compares to the # of new hangers that had to be purchased, but... I think I pretty much replaced all of the old shirts with new ones. I'd just kinda gotten into the habit of doing the searches and bidding on shirts, and... just kinda never STOPPED. I got everything really cheaply (the most I paid was $15 apiece for a couple of things, and the bulk of them were under $10 with many under $5), so it averages out to far less than most women spend if you take into account how long I'd gone without new clothes, but it's still a fair chunk of change; luckily, my husband is of the rare "Buy what you want" breed, rather than the far more common "Why did you waste more $ on clothes when you've already got plenty?" breed (although considering how much he spends on tech gadgetry, he's got nothing to complain about at any rate).
The really touching thing, though, is what he's said a couple of times since I officially announced the end of my clothing searches; although he didn't seem too excited to see the steady stream of shirts coming in, now that the stream is drying up he tells me that he'll really miss seeing me modeling them, that it'd been the highlight of his existence... those were his exact words, can you imagine? Pretty strong sentiments from a geek who's traditionally barely noticed clothes, as evidenced by the holes and stains that typically adorn HIS.
I've made some unexpected discoveries about the sorts of clothes he likes to see me in during this lengthy process, too. The 1st was that, despite his overall preference for plain, dark garments, he apparently thinks I look particularly "cute" in the most feminine colors and patterns imaginable; I got some extras in that category in consequence, and it'll be amusing to shock my geek friends by wearing them sometime soon. The 2nd was that he's been secretly loving some pajama/lounge pants I'd gotten a while back to wear when it's too hot for sweatpants (I don't wear shorts-my family was very conservative about that sort of thing, and it's stuck with me), and that his favorite pair was one with an unusual mixture of gothic and pastel images that he called "a fetching combination of girlishness and menace"; when I half-jokingly asked "You mean like ME?", he said "Yeah, you can be fairly menacing" with a big, dopey grin on his face... isn't that an odd thing for a man to like? Although I hadn't been looking for more pj bottoms as part of my new wardrobe, a neat pair with a cartoonish animal pattern on them had popped up in one of my searches, and I'd won them because they went cheaply; it was their arrival that got him waxing poetic about the entire genre. I'm well aware that pajamas of this sort are meant for much younger women, but the way my husband beams at me whenever I put on the newest pair has made me decide that the rules as to what's proper for my age don't apply to things worn only within the walls of our home; anything he's that enthusiastic to see me wearing after all our years together that doesn't involve underwires and thongs and such has gotta be a good thing.
Perhaps the most amazing clothes-related topic is that I've actually gotten PANTS on eBay; that might not sound noteworthy to the men, but women's bodies can curve to all sorts of degrees, there's no shred of size standardization within a brand much less between brands, and finding pants that fit properly is often a nightmare. The 1st pair of pants came as a gift along with the matching shirt I'd won, and, although they're a size 6, they're cut full and fit perfectly; this set in effect gives me a suit now, since I've gotten some shells to wear with it, which really helped alot in covering all my clothing bases. A 2nd pair of pants came up in a search for shirts, and they were so cool that I took a chance... and not only do they fit, they make my butt look better than any pair of pants I've ever had, which is saying a great deal since my butt isn't getting any smaller or younger. The 3rd pair of pants should be arriving any day now; they're really dressy, and since they have stretch there's a good chance they'll fit even if they're smaller than the measurements the seller gave led me to believe... if they work out, they, along with the pants I already mentioned and a couple of pairs of nice slacks I got at WalMart, will complete the wardrobe for the bottom half of my body. (Edit: got 'em-they fit!!)
What might be my greatest clothing coup EVER came right at the end of my months of searching; I found an auction for a wild shirt in my husband's size, and because he really liked it I put it on my watch list... and then the very next day I saw another auction for the exact same shirt from a different seller in MY size... I can still hardly believe it, this is NOT the sort of shirt you expect to see more than 1 of. I won both auctions, 15 hours apart, and, although one seller was in our state and the other was halfway across the country, both shirts came on the same day; the whole thing was almost eerie, but in a good way. Anyways, we now have MATCHING shirts; I don't know if we look cool or silly, but we're certainly distinctive, and WE like how we look.
There's another anecdote that's technically clothing-related; I used my husband's bathroom tonight, and finished off the roll of toilet paper, so like any mature human being I looked for a roll in the cabinet to replace it with... and there was nothing. I was about to go get a fresh package for him, but then I spotted the dirty socks on the floor... and carefully draped one around the empty roll. Imagine his surprise when he next went in there to do his business and all he had available to wipe himself with was a SOCK, lol.
And one final anecdote that's not clothing-related but IS, er, wiping-related; you might recall my post of 4-1-06 where I described how my husband decided that a CLOROX wipe was the same thing as a hand wipe was the same thing as a personal cleansing wipe, and used one on his backside, much to the amusement of me and our friends. Yesterday, the husband of one of my friends asked me for an email addy where he could send my husband jokes or some such nonsense; since my husband has a website, you can send him email with ANY addy that includes his domain name... so I gave my friend's husband an addy that had "Clorox_Kid" in it, which he thanked me for and used not knowing it was a joke. My husband was going to explain to the other man why this was NOT an approved addy, but wimped out and just told him it was a joke and to ask his wife for clarification.
hehehehehe
